鐵克健身網Taks's BodyGYM【基礎/一般訓練討論

樓主:

peter1947 (超級彼得)( )

2003/10/26 11:23:17

218.165.149.xxx

來自嘉義市
磅數 13.1磅
發文 7
註冊 2003/10/25
量級蠅量級
☆

請問一下,我照下面這篇文章臥舉,避免肩膀受傷,可是我教練說我
做一半,練不到胸肌,到底正確是如何?

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推舉須知
"BIG BENCH--BAD SHOULDERS!"
by Paul Chek www.paulchekseminars.com
推舉是一個用來增加胸部、前三角肌、以及三頭肌的力量和大小的運動。很不幸的，由於對推舉的過分重視加上技巧的不足，導致很多運動員或非運動員發生肩膀的傷害。再加上許多人的體態並不適合完全照著重量訓練教科書的方法來訓練，因此更加重了這種現象。
在傳統的訓練方法，在下降的時候槓鈴的槓子應該要碰到胸部，然後再把它推回去。幾乎大部分的人都認為如此，如果你沒有把槓鈴碰到胸部，則會被認為姿勢不正確，或是不能達到最大的訓練效果。然而，這個動作它需要你的肩膀有很大的運動範圍(range or motion, ROM)，而大部分的人，尤其是男性的肩膀，並沒有這麼大的運動範圍。在肩膀的ROM內來訓練有這麼重要嗎？

在推舉時，活動限制的因子不是肩膀的肌肉，而是包圍在肩關節周圍的結締組織叫做"關節囊"。這個組織的功能，不僅是要讓肩膀在安全的範圍內轉動，以免受傷，它裡面還有上千的神經突觸。這些突觸的會跟腦部溝通，告訴腦子現在肩膀的位置、運動的速度、壓力、張力、或是肩膀周圍的疼痛。在肩膀上加壓，迫使它離開正常的ROM會拉扯到關節囊。大多數的人如果讓槓鈴壓到胸部的話，就會有這種現象發生。

而且因為推舉是躺在一個平的推舉台上，肩胛骨的正常運動會受到阻礙。為了要適應這個姿勢，肩關節囊更會受到拉扯。當你舉得越重，你的肩膀就受到越大的壓力。

那麼槓鈴應該下降到什麼地方呢？這個距離在每個人都有不同，你必須自己判斷什麼是最適合你的距離。你可以做以下的自我測試，看看你臥推的距離應該是多少：

躺在推舉台上，雙手不要拿任何重量，手伸直，就好像你將槓鈴推到最高一樣。
接下來，很輕鬆的把雙手降低，就好像你有握著槓鈴一樣，直到雙手很自然的、不受任何壓力的降到最低點。
大部分的人可以發現這時你的拳頭比你把槓鈴壓到胸口時的位置高了一些，這個點就是你肩膀的ROM。

當你決定了你手的最低位置後，再把手抬高2-3公分，這個是你練推舉時的理想最低點。這樣可以提供你一些緩衝的空間，當你用很重的重量或是累得時候，不會過度拉到肩膀。
雖然很多人會說，你必須盡量用最大的動作來訓練，才會有力，訓練才有效，但是這種說法是沒有根據的。物理治療師或是運動科學家都知道，你用任何角度來作訓練，在這個角度加減１５度的範圍內，你都可以有相同的力量。換句話說，你如果訓練的時候，關節活動的角度是15--75度，那麼你從0到90度都會有相同的力量。這就是醫生們訓練在訓練受傷的肩膀或膝蓋，而能避免動到會痛的角度，又能達到訓練效果的道理。

訓練時保持在你的ROM裡面有什麼重要性？因為如果你的關節囊拉到的話，關節囊就不能再保持肩膀的穩定，做各種運動時，像游泳，打排球就容易造成肩膀關節的疼痛或受傷。而且肩關節拉到的話，人就不能感覺到肩膀的準確位置與動作，這對需要準確性的運動，像許多球類運動，都會造成影響。

Paul Chek MSS, HHP, NMT is an internationally recognized lecturer and consultant. He is the founder of the Corrective High-performance Exercise Kinesiology Certification Program. Paul Chek𠏋 Gym Instructor Video Series is loaded with information on how to safely and effectively lift weights. For more information on his seminars, videos, consulting appointments or products, or to find a C.H.E.K certified intern in your area, call 1-800-552-8789. Web page: www.paulchekseminars.com

回應

1作者	solomon (solomon) ( )	2003/10/27 02:02:34	218.166.204.xxx
來自新北市磅數 2947.6磅 (嚇威姨度假中) 發文 1800 註冊 2002/8/31 量級超重量級 ★★★★★	請你的教練多多閱讀有關於解剖學力學等書籍他就會知道為什麼會有這種理論
2作者	peter1947 (超級彼得) ( )	2003/10/27 20:37:01	218.165.147.xxx
來自嘉義市磅數 13.1磅發文 7 註冊 2003/10/25 量級蠅量級 ☆	謝謝大大我會把這篇文章給教練看的~
3作者	peter1947 (超級彼得) ( )	2003/11/02 14:01:27	218.165.151.xxx
來自嘉義市磅數 13.1磅發文 7 註冊 2003/10/25 量級蠅量級 ☆	教練看了還是不贊同這篇文章
4作者	take (Take) ( )	2003/11/02 14:48:04	61.219.36.xxx
來自台北市磅數 45933.1磅發文 22647 註冊 2001/6/2 上量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	每個人用的方式不同,理論千百種,也沒有絕對的對與錯,信不信在你自己, 假如你只相信教練講的,那就照他說的做.
贊助廣告

5作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2003/11/02 16:01:05	211.74.0.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	我想知道你教練不表認的理由為何?
6作者	solomon (solomon) ( )	2003/11/02 17:13:31	218.166.200.xxx
來自新北市磅數 2947.6磅 (嚇威姨度假中) 發文 1800 註冊 2002/8/31 量級超重量級 ★★★★★	這個理論並不是某人提出的而是經過科學實驗的結論當然也許在實際實行上會有點出入這就是我們在消化資訊時自己要做的調整只是一昧的否定難免有不週全的思考
7作者	peter1947 (超級彼得) ( )	2003/11/02 19:28:14	218.165.166.xxx
來自嘉義市磅數 13.1磅發文 7 註冊 2003/10/25 量級蠅量級 ☆	我照著篇文章,測到我的最低點再往上2~3公分,剛好是上臂與地面平行,教練看到就說我沒再下去點,會拉不到胸肌...每次看到我這樣做,他都會立刻跑來指導... 好煩喔..我解釋一下,他就會說他吃過的鹽比我走過的路多....
8作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2003/11/05 00:45:52	61.217.45.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	請問他是哪一間的教練,有些什麼樣的證照??練了多久?有沒有實際參加過比賽,成績為何? 開個玩笑大家別介意:假如山地庫馬先生說他之所以拿冠軍都是每天只吃乖乖配養樂多,你會照著吃嗎?
9作者	octapult (oct) ( )	2003/11/05 13:35:50	218.164.34.xxx
來自其他磅數 327.8磅發文 178 註冊 2003/3/26 量級中量級 ★★★	Paul Chek 的理論本身也是具有很大的爭議性，底下是 Dr. Mel Siff 反駁 Paul Chek 的論點： BIG BENCH - BAD SHOULDERS!" by Paul Chek Why all the fuss over a big bench-press? What does the sheer amount of weight that someone can push whilst lying flat on their back have to do with anything? If you're sitting with a bunch of guys and someone strong walks in, it's common to hear "I wonder what he can bench?". Or when discussing sport, the same question comes up, "How much can so-and-so bench?" When I go to a party and meet people, you can be as sure as the presence of beer that someone will ask, "What can you bench?" It is always great fun to see their reaction when I tell them "Not much, but I can run 30 meters flat out with Malu Mainu'u on my back!" The bench press exercise was never intended to be a benchmark of man (or woman!) hood. It is an exercise for improving the size and/or strength of the chest, anterior deltoids and triceps, nothing else. In fact, the star player on any team is rarely the one with the biggest bench press! Unfortunately, over-emphasis on the bench press often coupled with poor technique has led to a high incidence of shoulder injuries in both athletes and non-athletes. Additionally many people are not anatomically designed to perform the exercise as it is generally taught in most strength training texts, Personal Trainer certification courses and by many strength coaches. [Mel Siff: *While poor benching technique may well lead to shoulder injury, there is no scientific or clinical evidence that provides clear proof that bench pressing per se will compromise shoulder health and stability - just as is the case with ALL exercises. This sort of remark is tantamount to saying that all running is dangerous because a large percentage of knee injuries occur during running activities! From our recent prolonged discussions on running technique, we should know by now that any exercise may be performed poorly or dangerously.] The Problem with Traditional Technique The bar is lowered until it touches the chest and then pressed back up to the start position. Everyone is expected to lower the bar to the chest; anything less is considered poor form, sub-standard, and even wimpy by fellow lifters. However, to perform the exercise under such guidelines requires a greater range of motion (ROM) than is found in the shoulder joint of most people - particularly male athletes. Why is it so important to work within the ROM of your shoulder joint? Some simple anatomy will help to explain this. The movement-restricting factor during a bench press is not the muscles of the shoulder; it is the special connective tissue casing around the shoulder joint called the "joint capsule". This highly specialized structure is anatomically designed to not only allow just the right amount of motion to prevent joint damage, but also contains thousands of specialized nerve endings called "proprioceptors". [Mel Siff: * Only partially correct - the active, contractile muscles can restrict the range of movement from only a few centimetres of movement to the extreme of range where the non-contractile tissues such as the capsule and ligaments then take over to passively control the action. The capsule plays a far greater role as one reaches one's active range of movement. Chek is referring to the situation where one goes way beyond the position where the active muscles can exert any further force on the bar and nobody ever teaches that as a desirable or sensible way of bench pressing. If one observes the real bench pressing experts, namely the powerlifters, one would note that they use a tense body arch and very high chest thrust to limit the excessively deep descent of the bar. You don't have to rely on the capsule and ligaments to act as the final arbiters of shoulder safety! If injuries are being caused during bench press, it has far more to do with poor technique than the nature of the bench press itself. If one examines pitching action, which, by the way is explosive and ballistic (both condemned by so many "experts" in strength conditioning!!) and reliant on violent stretching of the joint capsule, tendons and other passive structures of the shoulder, there is far more potential to compromise shoulder integrity than any well-taught bench pressing. Even though I am a Weightlifter who is not often encouraged to do bench pressing, I have done so just for fun over a very full range with loads in excess of 140kg (308lbs) a few times a week (at a bodymass of around 90kg) for more than three decades and have never found that my shoulder integrity has been harmed in the least for snatching and jerking. In fact, I have never ever injured my shoulder in lifting training or competition and I know many colleagues who have benched and done Olympic lifts for many years without any shoulder problems. That's my anecdotal evidence to answer Chek's anecdotal evidence! ] Proprioceptors are special nerve endings that communicate with the brain to inform it of joint position and speed of movement, as well as pressure, tension and pain in and around the joint. Loading the shoulder and forcing it beyond the functional ROM limit will stretch the shoulder joint capsule. In most people this will occur by letting the bench-press bar travel until it touches the chest. [Mel Siff: * Allowing any joint to move under loading over its current maximum range of active movement has been shown to produce exceptionally efficient 'functional' motor ability - see Iashvili's research cited in Ch 3 of "Supertraining". In fact, Russian sports scientists have long recognised that this sort of training enhances both conventional flexibility and a special strength quality known as "flexibility-strength" (see Ch 1 of "Supertraining"). Anyway, the level of stress imposed upon the shoulder is a function of several variables including hand spacing, load, path trajectory and rate of movement. Shoulder integrity also depends on duration of movement, relative reliance on the different types of muscle action (eccentric, concentric and isometric), as well as the use of prestretch, relaxation at the bottom of the action and rest intervals between reps and sets. By making no reference to any of these variables, Chek's comments are misleading and gravely incomplete.] Additionally, because the bench press is performed on a flat weight lifting bench, normal movement of the shoulder blades (scapulae) is disrupted. This demands that more movement must occur in the shoulder joint itself. As the bar is loaded with heavier and heavier weights, the shoulder blades are pressed into the bench harder and harder, further disrupting the normal mechanics of the shoulder girdle joints and overloading the shoulder. How far should you let the bar travel when performing a bench press? To protect the shoulder joint capsule from being stretched out or injured the exerciser must determine how far to safely lower the bar. It is essential that each person determine optimal bench press range of motion for his or her own shoulders, as each person is different. [Mel Siff: * While this last comment is valid for any given instant, it assumes that one's range of 'functional' movement is a constant and cannot be altered. Of course, we all know that we should work within our own current range of movement, but we also need to appreciate that our current individual ranges may not be optimal for us or our sports. This is what the principles of gradual progressive overload and SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed demands) are all about. Since actions such as pitching involve explosive loading of the shoulder over extended range of movement, it necessitates enhancement of qualities such as flexibility-strength and explosive strength, as well as shoulder stability, which may be offered by appropriate forms of intelligent bench pressing. One should not throw out the bench pressing baby with the guru bath waters!] Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/
10作者	octapult (oct) ( )	2003/11/05 13:51:25	218.164.34.xxx
來自其他磅數 327.8磅發文 178 註冊 2003/3/26 量級中量級 ★★★	Dr. Mel Siff 提出他自己與同僚的經驗，只是一個舉例而已。他後面又加了一句話："That's my anecdotal evidence to answer Chek's anecdotal evidence!"。他認為 Paul Check 的文章沒有提出任何 scientific 和 clinical reference 來證明他的觀點，使得 Paul Check 的論點等於只是一個 anecdotal evidence，所以他也提出自己與同僚的 anecdotal evidence 來反駁 Paul Check 的 anecdotal evidence。 Dr. Mel Siff 還有其他更重要的論點，譬如第一段有下面這一句話 (我個人覺得這一點是整篇文章最重要的一點)： "While poor benching technique may well lead to shoulder injury, there is no scientific or clinical evidence that provides clear proof that bench pressing per se will compromise shoulder health and stability - just as is the case with ALL exercises." 接著他開始以 powerlifter 為了能夠舉更大的重量而做姿勢上的調整作為例子。我個人認為，powerlifter 這方面的努力當然包括了盡量避免受傷、還有設法讓全身 under most biomechanical advantage 的情況之下能夠發揮最大的力量。當然我的想法並不重要，我們先看 Dr. Mel Siff 說了甚麼： "If one observes the real bench pressing experts, namely the powerlifters, one would note that they use a tense body arch and very high chest thrust to limit the excessively deep descent of the bar. You don't have to rely on the capsule and ligaments to act as the final arbiters of shoulder safety! If injuries are being caused during bench press, it has far more to do with poor technique than the nature of the bench press itself." 接下來他才以自己與同僚沒有受傷來當成一個 anecdotal evidence 來反駁 Paul Check 的 anecdotal evidence。接下來他以俄羅斯的運動科學家的研究成果來說明，讓關節在超過其 active range of motion 的情況之下承受負荷，也就是增進該關節的 flexibility strenght 的重要性： "Allowing any joint to move under loading over its current maximum range of active movement has been shown to produce exceptionally efficient 'functional' motor ability... In fact, Russian sports scientists have long recognised that this sort of training enhances both conventional flexibility and a special strength quality known as "flexibility-strength"" 接著他說，會影響肩膀的因素有雙手握距、重量、槓鈴行進軌道、執行速度...等等，可是 Paul Check 在沒有考慮這些因素的情況之下，直接得到一個大膽的結論，這樣的結論是有很大的疑問的： "Anyway, the level of stress imposed upon the shoulder is a function of several variables including hand spacing, load, path trajectory and rate of movement. Shoulder integrity also depends on duration of movement, relative reliance on the different types of muscle action (eccentric, concentric and isometric), as well as the use of prestretch, relaxation at the bottom of the action and rest intervals between reps and sets. By making no reference to any of these variables, Chek's comments are misleading and gravely incomplete." 最後他以投球這種需要非常大的 ROM 的動作做為例子，指出適當姿勢的 bench press 對這類運動的幫助： "Since actions such as pitching involve explosive loading of the shoulder over extended range of movement, it necessitates enhancement of qualities such as flexibility-strength and explosive strength, as well as shoulder stability, which may be offered by appropriate forms of intelligent bench pressing." Dr. Mel Siff 並不是反對肩膀有傷的人不應該讓槓鈴碰到胸部，他只是反對 Paul Check "不考慮每個人的運動需求、還有其他各項可以減少肩膀壓力的方法，而直接認為所有的人都一定要以肩膀關節的 active range of motion 再扣掉 2~3 cm 為其 bench press ROM" 的結論。
11作者	solomon (solomon) ( )	2003/11/05 19:52:46	218.166.202.xxx
來自新北市磅數 2947.6磅 (嚇威姨度假中) 發文 1800 註冊 2002/8/31 量級超重量級 ★★★★★	我想這應該是對於問題的切入點 Paul Check看起來比較針對健美的項目認為在健美運動中bench press ROM應該就是以肩膀關節的 active range of motion 再扣掉2~3 cm 而Dr. Mel Siff則以"重量訓練"的觀點來解釋也就是比較全面性個人淺見~ 2~3 cm
12作者	peter1947 (超級彼得) ( )	2003/11/07 10:06:47	218.165.152.xxx
來自嘉義市磅數 13.1磅發文 7 註冊 2003/10/25 量級蠅量級 ☆	好複雜那我到底該如何做...
13作者	m09123456789 (布勒) ( )	2003/11/07 18:07:00	210.64.255.xxx
來自屏東縣磅數 300.8磅發文 132 註冊 2003/8/27 量級輕中量級 ★★☆	看不懂
14作者	solomon (solomon) ( )	2003/11/07 18:57:13	218.166.202.xxx
來自新北市磅數 2947.6磅 (嚇威姨度假中) 發文 1800 註冊 2002/8/31 量級超重量級 ★★★★★	有看到"考慮每個人的運動需求"這段文字嗎我個人認為健美的推舉不必碰到胸部參考一下

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