鐵克健身網Take'sBodyGYM -請問

樓主:

monkey (摔角手)( )

2004/01/17 15:30:47

219.76.64.xxx

來自港澳地區
磅數 6.2磅
發文 4
註冊 2004/1/10
量級蠅量級
☆

站樁15分鐘已經有酸軟感覺~
不知對練粗大腿有沒有效?

回應

1作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2004/01/17 18:16:00	61.216.70.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	完全沒效,謝謝!!
2作者	boblam (Bob the BOdyBuilder!) ( )	2004/01/18 09:42:48	202.40.200.xxx
來自其他磅數 967.5磅發文 389 註冊 2003/10/15 量級重量級 ★★★★	為什麼會沒效呢? 如果你是初練,怎都會有些效的,練久了可以找些重量(水桶、包裝米、美人)來增加負荷,練久了慢慢就會有粗大的效果,如果只是練體重站樁耐力,粗大的效果有限,但不是完全沒有效果的...
3作者	Taidemgu (Blood & Guts) ( )	2004/01/19 03:05:08	61.221.83.xxx
來自桃園縣磅數 473.4磅發文 304 註冊 2003/1/27 量級中量級 ★★★	我覺得沒效，我覺得的啦！ A strong will is more important than superior genetics.
4作者	boblam (Bob the BOdyBuilder!) ( )	2004/01/19 09:34:34	202.40.200.xxx
來自其他磅數 967.5磅發文 389 註冊 2003/10/15 量級重量級 ★★★★	肌肥大不一定要重複負重(weighted rep),你只是站立肌肉都在用力,都在負荷,只要有負荷,肌肉都要適應。身體比較重的人,四頭肌都會比較大,體重輕的人,腿部都比較小。你看那些不足一百磅的小姐們,哪一個腿部不是像竹子一樣的?但是當她們中年發福後,除去增加了的脂肪,四頭肌確實是粗大了(只要你去問問那些發福後又成功減重的女仕就知道),同一道理,站舂附加上四頭肌的負荷,也會迫使其適應而變大變粗,覺得沒效的可以試試每天站舂一小時,連續一個月,實驗一下才知是否沒效。
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5作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2004/01/19 11:39:57	61.216.68.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	我們都知道肌肉肥大的訓練原理,依據原則上來說,在8~12下的最大反覆次數(8~12RM)時對肌肥大的效益是最大的..而站樁在此是屬於肌耐力的訓練.對一班完全沒有訓練經驗或基礎的人來講,也許確實是有一些肌肥大的效益,但畢竟是有限.就跟有很多人單純的認為要練壯去玩BODY POMB就可以了.而在長時間站樁時,股四頭肌,腿後肌群與臀大肌只是維持在等長收縮的狀態,並沒有在持續收縮與伸展,因此對肌肉肥大的刺激也不夠. 同樣的一個月負重站樁跟做8~12RM的SQUAT,結果不同我想是肯定的.在決定要如何訓練下半身之前, 我想要先確定我們訓練的目的為何?假如我們是為了增加踢擊的速度與破壞力,站樁訓練肯定是效益最少的;但假如我們是要訓練下半身的穩定與掌握氣的流動的話,那當然要從站樁開始. MONKEY的問題是問"是否大腿會變粗",在"粗"的前提下,我們所選擇的運動方式就會有所不同.而且希望是有持續肥大效果的訓練.在中國武術裡面確實有一些東西還是很難以現代學去完全的詮釋它,比如在氣的開發,意念的導引方面..但是在其他訓練的部分我想我們都可以運用運動科學的原理原則來加以分析,並加以運用!
6作者	boblam (Bob the BOdyBuilder!) ( )	2004/01/20 09:14:36	202.40.200.xxx
來自其他磅數 967.5磅發文 389 註冊 2003/10/15 量級重量級 ★★★★	問題是肌肉受刺激和有沒有做八到十二次沒有直接關係,當你只能完成2RM,肌肉也是受刺激,有什麼道理只有做十二次才長得大?如果你做Partial rep,一組不能只做十二次,而且這樣做你的"肌肉刺激"是12RM所不能做到的 Pete sisco用整本書來講解為什麼肌肥大不一定要"持續收縮與伸展",因為重點是intensity,而intensity是workload over time.只要舉著很重的東西盡力保持不動,不用做"持續收縮與伸展",幾個月後的實驗結果也是肌肥大。
7作者	chihlingw (chihlingw) ( )	2004/01/20 11:20:46	61.219.36.xxx
來自北美洲磅數 58磅發文 38 註冊 2003/5/9 上量級雛量級 ★	既然已經有經過證實更為迅速且有效的方法, 在安全無虞的前提下, 何必再去採用一些古老且成效不彰的作法?
8作者	lovecensor (差 2 號中大樂透, 我會繼續努力) ( )	2004/01/20 12:18:00	61.66.143.xxx
來自台北市磅數 242.3磅發文 168 註冊 2002/11/7 量級輕中量級 ★★☆	>只要舉著很重的東西盡力保持不動,不用做"持續收縮與伸展",幾個月後的實驗結果也是肌肥大。我有沒有誤解? 你的意思是舉著很重的東西, 幾個月都不要動嗎?
9作者	solomon (solomon) ( )	2004/01/20 12:56:16	218.166.156.xxx
來自新北市磅數 2947.6磅 (嚇威姨度假中) 發文 1800 註冊 2002/8/31 量級超重量級 ★★★★★	這是離心收縮的一種訓練方式只是把離心收縮的時間延長而已從刺激肌肉的角度來看效果還是有的雖然有效果卻不及離心與向心收縮同時訓練
10作者	boblam (Bob the BOdyBuilder!) ( )	2004/01/20 16:45:38	202.40.200.xxx
來自其他磅數 967.5磅發文 389 註冊 2003/10/15 量級重量級 ★★★★	練健美目的是長肌肉,不是練有氧體操,Pete Sisco拿起啞鈴,想到的就是要用最小的時間,得到最大的肌肉刺激.這樣就不用每天跑到健身室,由頭到腳訓練一兩個小時.在網上很多地方都能找到"功率因子訓練法",pete sisco在這個文章提倡用partial rep來增加負荷,例如啞鈴彎舉(dumbell curl),很多時力量都是由擺動(swing)而來,二頭肌所受的刺激根本很少,當前臂彎成九十度彎曲時,二頭肌所受的力才是最大的.我試過一個能做20RM的重量,當限制到Partial rep時,其實是做不到20RM的,如果以為自己已經掌握了這個重量,去加多十公斤,我猜對肌肥大沒太多作用. 責馬(站樁)是有效的,因為它和Pete sisco所講的static contraction training所做的實驗類同,只不過這裡要加大負荷.Pete sisco所想的是,如果partial rep是那麼有效,那麼將每一個rep的range無限地減少,直到static hold(靜態保持),是不是同樣有效呢?他做了一個實驗,找了一些人來測試這個假設,要求他們定期做static contraction training(用一個超過1RM的重量,Static hold大約三十秒),實驗的結果證明,每次訓練只需三十秒,就足以導致肌肥大."持續收縮與伸展"不單不是肌肥大的充份條件,而不是必要條件. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sisco3.htm Learn the TRUTH about training from one of the most famous bodybuilding authors in the world! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (This article is edited from Pete Sisco's AMAZING bodybuilding e-Book, TRAIN SMART!) It's strange how once you get involved in a certain subject it has a way of leading to other connected issues. My initial interest in static contraction training was its application as a "minimum dose" form of exercise. I have never been a hard core bodybuilder or the sort who likes to spend as much time in the gym as he can, who gets a "high" just in anticipation of a workout or yearns to get back to the gym after being away for only short periods of time. In fact, I'm really quite the opposite. I've never particularly enjoyed exercise and if someone can show me a way in which three workouts can yield the same benefit as ten workouts, I'm all ears. For me, lifting weights is a means to get stronger so that I can use the strength doing something I enjoy outside of the gym. So the appeal of Static Contraction Training was the fact that it permitted very brief workouts that could be spaced very far apart. As I'm now over forty, I am particularly interested in not just the minimum dose of exercise that can trigger new muscle growth, but more in the minimum dose of exercise which can sustain my lean mass into middle age and beyond. Old habits of thinking are often difficult to break. So even when I designed the Static Contraction Research Study, measurements were taken that would demonstrate static training's benefits, not just to static strength and muscle mass gains, but also to full range strength. It took me about a year to realize that static strength has its own merits that, in many applications, rank above full range strength. I have become sensitized to how often I find myself using the static strength of my muscles rather than the dynamic strength of my muscles. For example, before these words were put on this page they were first dictated into a hand held recorder. One of my favorite ways of mixing work with pleasure is riding my off road motorcycle into the wilds of Idaho's mountains, finding a remote area of pristine wilderness, in today's case bedecked with wildflowers and elk tracks, and dictating articles like this one. When riding a motorcycle, particularly in off road or motocross conditions, the body expends a great deal of muscular energy but nearly all of it is expended by holding the muscles statically. The biceps and triceps hold, or attempt to hold, the handlebars in a more or less fixed position despite being bumped and buffeted by various obstacles. The quadriceps and ham strings hold the body in a position three or four inches off the seat and do their best to maintain that rigid position in space despite the up and down motion of the motorcycle. Once again I was aware of the value of static strength while trap shooting. All shooting sports rely on the ability of the muscles to have sufficient static strength to hold the gun perfectly steady under all conditions. Dynamic, or full range strength, is never used. I notice that my ten-year-old son, Alex, who shoots with me, can always break more clay pigeons on his first ten shots than he can on his second ten. I attribute this difference to muscle fatigue that sets in sometime after his first ten shots. I have no doubt that if he were to increase his static strength he would find it less tiring to hold his shotgun and his scores would improve proportionately. The same holds true for most adults after thirty to fifty shots. Two more examples are alpine and water-skiing. A water-skier holds his arms and legs in a more or less rigid position while skiing. He will shift position from time to time but once shifted his knees and elbows stay bent at about the same angle. Bobbing up and down in the range of motion of a full squat, for example, would serve no purpose but to look ridiculous and manifest bad form. Skiers need static strength and they need it at a specific point in their range of motion. Lately I have wondered just how long the list of sports and activities that utilize static strength really is. Horseback riding, mountain biking (upper body), wrestling, jet skiing, nearly all gymnastic events, fencing and no doubt many more sports all lend themselves to Static Contraction Training. In any application where an athlete would benefit from having more static strength at a specific point in his range of motion, he would surely benefit more by exercising statically and therefore developing the exact form of strength he needs, where he needs it. As exercise science further evolves I firmly believe that Static Contraction Training will play not just the role I originally envisioned, of "minimum dosage" for maintaining or increasing muscle mass, but also as a very precise method of placing additional strength exactly where it is needed. Learn more about Static Training. Train Smart. Peter Sisco
11作者	boblam (Bob the BOdyBuilder!) ( )	2004/01/20 17:20:32	202.40.200.xxx
來自其他磅數 967.5磅發文 389 註冊 2003/10/15 量級重量級 ★★★★	http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sisco6.htm Static Contraction Training Bear with me for just a second while I say something mathematical: In exercise, intensity is inversely proportional to duration. Simply stated, the greater your effort, the less time you can sustain it. That's why a 100-meter sprinter can run faster than a marathoner. The tradeoff is the sprinter can only run all out for ten seconds but the marathoner can keep running for two hours. Now take a look at their legs. The sprinter has the thick, powerful leg muscles and the marathoner has much thinner legs. And the sprinter builds those massive muscles using a "dose" of exercise that is ten seconds or less. Isn't that interesting? So if you're in the gym trying to develop thick, powerful arms or a thick, powerful chest why are you grinding away for hours? Why not try to discover the minimum dose of exercise that will deliver the highest possible intensity? Experiments to Discover Maximum Intensity After the success of Power Factor Training in 1993, we realized that limiting the range of motion in an exercise was an effective way to increase intensity. Basically, a subject could gain more muscle lifting 200 pounds a few inches than he could by lifting 100 pounds through his full range of motion. Once we knew full range of motion was not very important in stimulating muscle growth, we created a study to see what would happen if bodybuilders used zero range of motion but with the heaviest weights they could possibly hold. We recruited some hardcore bodybuilders who had already developed impressive physiques�so it would be extra challenging to put new muscle on these subjects compared to average subjects. We put them on a routine averaging just 2.1 workouts per week where subjects statically held heavy weights (without any up and down movement) in their strongest range but without being "locked out". After just 10 weeks of Static Contraction Training, these subjects: Increased static strength 51.3% Increased their full range 1-rep max 27.6% Increased their full range 10-rep max 34.3% Added 9.0 pounds of new muscle (one subject added 28.9 pounds!) Lost 4.9 pounds of fat Added ?inch to their biceps Added 1.1 inches to their chest When was the last time you made gains like that in 10 weeks? Since the above study, we have conducted more studies using various refinements that have proven the benefits of reduced hold times and a corresponding increase in intensity. For example, the above results were achieved using hold times of 15 to 30 seconds but now we know hold times of less than half that duration work even better. (See the TRAIN SMART! e-book.) This form of minimum dose, maximum intensity training has been widely hailed as revolutionary. Ironman Magazine said Static Contraction Training "could cause physiology books to be rewritten." And world renowned human performance coach Tony Robbins says it's, "The cutting edge in bodybuilding [and] strength training that can show you - no matter what age you are - how you can produce the greatest result you ever thought possible in the shortest time." Try It Yourself Try these two simple exercises. You'll be amazed at how strong you really are. Perform each of these exercises exactly as described. Do both of them the same day then repeat them five days later. After three sessions you'll feel the astounding effects that this level of muscle stimulation triggers. Bench Press: This exercise is performed inside a Power Rack, as pictured. Position the bar within two inches of your extended reach. Place 30-100% more weight on the bar than you normally use. Press the bar up one inch (do not lock-out) and hold for a count of 7 seconds. Experiment to find the most weight you can hold for 7 seconds. Repeat five days later with 10-30% more weight and again five days after that with another 10-30% more weight. Leg Press: This exercise is performed with the safety stops engaged at ALL TIMES. Position the seat so the sled is within 2 inches of your full extension. Place 100-200% more weight on the press than you normally use. Press the sled up one inch off the safety stops. Hold for a count of 7 seconds. Experiment to find the most weight you can hold for 7 seconds. Repeat five days later with 20-50% more weight and again five days after that with another 20-50% more weight. Push yourself to the limits of your capability. Most people using this method make the mistake of estimating the weight they can lift far too low. When you repeat these exercise expect very significant increases in weight. The Ultimate in Muscle Growth Stimulation Static Contraction Training capitalizes on the undisputed fact that the intensity of muscular output is more important than the duration of output when it comes to stimulating new muscle growth. It provides the "minimum dose" of ultra high intensity exercise. It's already working for thousands of guys�try it yourself and see. Learn more about this topic. Train Smart. Peter Sisco
12作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2004/01/20 18:16:24	203.73.43.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	8~12RM對肌肥大是最有效益的訓練方式是美國運動醫學會(ACSM)經過研究之後所公佈的結果.我在這裡並不否定PETER SISCO所主張的理論,但在它的看法沒有經過正式的科學實驗證明之前,我們只能把它看成是一項個人經驗.我相信如果仔細找的話,一定也可以找到其他理論與PETER相反的其他選手所提出來的看法. 因此我們希望當某一個方法在科學實驗結果上有直接證明它是成立的之後,才比較適合以肯定的態度提出討論. 再者,我不知道BOBLAM兄有沒有長時間同時進行武術與重量訓練的經驗,如果有的話,您應該知道不論在本質,過程與結果上這兩者均是不同的,似乎不太適合提出來做直接的比較.健美追求的是肌肥大,而武術所重視的卻是很多其他方面的東西..之間有交集,但也有不同的地方. 同時,PETER SISCO的訓練確定適合一個人嗎?尤其是初學者.我們常常看到的就是很多人可以在雜誌或網路上找到一些選手所貼出來的課表,就照單全收,埋首苦練..要知道這些東西是這些選手現在所使用的課表,我們不論在資歷,經驗或是本身能力方面當然不能與他們相比,一五一十的照著人家的方法練卻希望也可以達到人家的效果,並不恰當.這些個人經驗可以當作參考,可以自身實驗,卻還不適合當作定律.
13作者	mist (映夜) ( )	2004/01/21 10:15:37	61.70.153.xxx
來自新北市磅數 113.7磅發文 68 註冊 2003/8/7 下量級羽量級 ★☆	基本上肌肉收縮方式有等長等張及等速收縮這三種練健美主要強調的是等張收縮這方面目前也有採用等速收縮的訓練不過那器材太貴了我想不是有多少的健身房擺得起因為他主要的用途是在於復健方面至於等張收縮就是我們所謂的僵直運動站樁就在此類這三種都是能夠促進肌肥大的運動至於Jimmy兄所說武術跟重量訓練本質不同這點我同意因為現代武術要求勁道與速度的發展並行不悖自然不希望過度的肌肥大因此營養攝取不像健美運動這樣重視所以練武術的看起來大多十分精實而不壯碩但並不表示站樁不會肌肥大就是了如果有加上營養上面的攝取考量相信武術家的腿也是不小隻的至少小弟練武練了那麼久一接觸到健美後腿的操練動作次數與上半身肌群比較起來不需要那麼多但或許個人體質吧如果事事都要科學證明的話那為什麼不自我去做實驗來得快呢至少站樁可以肌肥大的可能性小弟是試驗過可能性是存在的
14作者	mist (映夜) ( )	2004/01/21 17:12:42	61.70.153.xxx
來自新北市磅數 113.7磅發文 68 註冊 2003/8/7 下量級羽量級 ★☆	還有一點要補充說明我們都知道健美的定義在於合理的考量下杜絕高風險來鍛鍊等長收縮(上一篇打錯在這邊更正)不被採納的原因就在於他的風險性過高試想若一個人舉著100公斤的槓鈴死撐在一百八十度或是接近九十度角五分鐘他有的風險性有多大有沒有他的效果在有在Weider訓練法則中也有提到所謂的頂峰收縮理論(peak contraction principle) 顯然Weider也無法忘情等長收縮的重量訓練所帶來的效果當然做這種動作的危險性是超高的不建議以負重狀態下訓練但是像站樁這樣負擔自身體重訓練也無不可況且健美說真的不過才發展不足百年而武術的發源早已無法考據借用古人的智慧做現代式的訓練又有何不可何必要做出賤古厚今這種舉動呢
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15作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2004/01/21 21:39:21	61.216.69.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	您知道等長收縮最大的風險在哪裡嗎?肌肉關節的負擔?是的,但最大的危險是容易發生努責現象!這是不論初學者或是老收均容易發生的狀況.我之前說等長類似的訓練法不適合用來與站樁做比較的理由就是:試想,以肌肥大作為前提的等長訓練的負荷會是多大?他調整呼吸的可能性為何??而站樁剛好相反,以關節動作與肌肉收縮來講,形式是處於等長收縮沒錯,但相反的我們在長時間的站樁同時是藉著這個體勢下,達到氣的引導與流通,反而需要更加的控制呼吸!因此這應是不同的吧..而且老實說站樁大腿肌肉肥大的效果真的非常有限. 這也就是我為什麼主張經過科學驗證確定的方法才比較適合..試想假如今天您是一位指導者,妳有可能拿一些沒有根據過的純粹個人的經驗去指導那些剛入門的學員嗎?自我實驗有可能成功,但是也有可能會失敗吧.至少有系統,有規劃的方法比較可以肯定適合大多數的人,而且避免掉一些傷害. 本人學武也已進十六年,正如本人前一篇說過,有很多東西是現在科學訓練無法取代的,但卻是有一些方面我們可以藉著現代的一些資訊找到更清楚的答案!我們應該學會如何去選擇或取捨,而不是一昧的照單全收..我相信映夜兄如果有研究的話,對健美重訓,體適能重訓,武術重訓以及一般競技類重訓這些不同的重量訓練中可以看到在不同方面同樣的重訓所要求的異同點,這樣相信應該對我們這個話題就會有不同的看法.
16作者	mist (映夜) ( )	2004/01/22 00:24:40	61.70.153.xxx
來自新北市磅數 113.7磅發文 68 註冊 2003/8/7 下量級羽量級 ★☆	實在不想在這邊說重話在重量訓練的等長收縮中因閉氣不呼吸導致循環不良內壓上升的努責現象那是因為在運動中操作上的錯誤動作並不表示在等長收縮不注重呼吸甚至在Weider的頂峰收縮理論也沒有說閉氣操作這跟站樁的自然呼吸並沒有相牴觸一個是有形有質的重量操作一個是無形但有質的站樁兩者都是負荷一定的重量只是形態上不同當然都具有肌肥大的條件只是因為重量上沒有到達所謂的RPM就不構成肌肥大那是不可能的事如果沒有那又如何來解釋一般的胖子在去除了脂肪之後的大腿肌肉會比一些做腿部重量訓練的人來得大今天眾多網友是在說明有沒有效果而不是在這邊做意氣相干的爭執 Jimmy兄在一開始的文章就否定了站樁能夠肌肥大在後面又找補救說有部份效果又不看文章的重點小弟覺得在這邊做這種硬撐的場面話實在沒有必要現代科學論證速度之慢大家又不是不曉得現代大多健美理論都是一些退休的健美選手或是研究生寫報告把一些想法找大學生做試驗再推斷數據來做概略統計加上身體的一些反應指數做發表這就是絕大多數所謂的科學論證那跟用基本判斷出來的東西又有多少差別做為一個指導員當然給予每個會員是不同的運動處方當然不會拿危險動作去開玩笑這跟拿自身經歷給學員完全不相干是道德面的問題但像那種再基本不過的東西無較大風險給予初學者做嘗試一方面做結論不也是和退役選手大學研究生做一樣的事嗎況且有指導員會給一個學員一個運動處方後不做觀察修改的嗎不做統計而在等不勞而獲的法則那不是在說笑話嗎 Jimmy兄自稱練武十六年卻連站樁基本定義都錯了練了十六年還在玩氣的引導流通玩弄精神那是沒下過苦功看書翻翻的說法根本連入門都沒資格有誰解剖過身體還發現到氣在運行的管道的又有誰解剖腹部丹田地帶看到有空氣的那些搬運流轉運通是宋代以後道家的爛觴跟武術扯不上關係練站樁一天站個五小時站上半年一上樁連腳的感覺都沒了哪還在玩搬運玩疏通不要笑掉人家大牙要科學論證自己卻連一點實驗精神都沒有卻在這邊隨口說說至少也看看Boblam兄或是其他人的解釋而不是拿教科書講講說說這樣的專家到處都有這邊也不需要
17作者	take (猩猩) ( )	2004/01/22 03:47:45	61.222.32.xxx
來自台北市磅數 45933.1磅發文 22647 註冊 2001/6/2 上量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	mist兄先沈下心.我相信Jimmy兄只是在某方面堅持他的看法,也相信boblam兄及你也是的. 我剛剛看完整串討論,覺得大家都是依照自己的想法提出意見討論,可能比較嚴肅, 但是都沒有惡意.在版上討論畢竟不能看到對方的表情, 用字遣詞稍一不慎可能就傳遞了錯誤的感覺,但那不是你我的本意.相信這是你我都曾經有過的經歷今天是初一了,請大家以和為貴,以研究切磋的精神互相討論,大家都是朋友! 我希望以後的網聚以研討與實地操作為主要方向,希望你們到時也來給我支持大家在打過照面之後互相切磋,經驗交流也能減少更多的誤會. 新年快樂要壯就不要怕胖!! If You Can Believe It, You Can Achieve It
18作者	JIMMY (JIMMY) ( )	2004/01/22 10:29:25	61.216.70.xxx
來自台北市磅數 4082.6磅發文 2650 註冊 2002/11/25 量級超超重量級 ★★★★★★★	哈,我也覺得映夜兄可以把我們前後幾篇的文章在慢慢仔細看個一兩遍,應該可以比較知道我們各自主張的是什麼,不然只會更雞同鴨講.. 這邊是重訓討論板,我們重點還是放在重量訓練的討論上,至於在武術理論上我們可以另外再探討. 很多時候由於立場,經驗,資歷不同,同樣的事情看會不一樣,老實說本人曾經有一度的看法跟映夜兄完全一樣,所以可以了解映夜兄的想法.
19作者	solomon (solomon) ( )	2004/01/22 21:00:16	61.63.38.xxx
來自新北市磅數 2947.6磅 (嚇威姨度假中) 發文 1800 註冊 2002/8/31 量級超重量級 ★★★★★	慢慢離題了喔趕快回到問題吧
20作者	mist (映夜) ( )	2004/01/22 21:27:13	61.70.153.xxx
來自新北市磅數 113.7磅發文 68 註冊 2003/8/7 下量級羽量級 ★☆	不過東牽西扯說一樣觀念不敢講話提不出實證武術界這種不學無術光耍嘴皮的小弟看到不少沒想到這邊也有

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